Catholic Youth Ministry & Vocation Research

Pastoral Leadership as Reflection on Failure

Making Incremental Progress on our Toughest Problems in Catholic Adolescent Catechesis and Youth Ministry
Friday, September 15, 2006

Dialogue Report

Seventy-five youth ministers, directors of religious education, pastors, vocation directors, Catholic school principals & teachers, Catholic college faculty and administrators, and Catholic publishers attended this workshop with intentional dialogue on making incremental progress on our toughest problems in Catholic adolescent catechesis and youth ministry. The following is a written report generated from the dialogue at this workshop. Presentations were made by Mike Carotta and Jeff Kaster at this workshop.

Table Dialogue 1: Reflection on Failure

Pastoral Leadership Table Dialogue 1 Summary.pdf

What is common to these experiences of failure? What is important?

Table One:

• What are my personal or programmatic experiences of failure? Tell a story!
• Parents are alienated by church rules, eg. Virtus requirements for field trips. This further separates.
• It is easy to reach out to the highly engaged.
• Responsibility goes back to parents and families.
• Frustrations – option.
• What about kids who don’t come again after confirmation? Parents have no problem paying K-8 in Cath, but then 9-11 they resist paying fees for conf.

Table Two:

• Following inadequately trained volunteers, professionals, or readers to continue in the ministry, without guidance and evaluation for improvement.
• Instead of looking at our resources and doing what we can with those, we try to continue our “regular” programming with those resources.
• Lack of support for effective faith ministry practices.

Table Three:

• Not always follow-up their parents. Tune out as their parents. Good parentage doesn’t guarantee. The Sower doesn’t make a distinction - he did it with his heart. What is discipleship – many teens are questioning.
• There are cultural changes – we respond differently from our parents. Would be interesting to know how many come back.
• Also how do we journey? Who is the connector? Church and seeker out there. You cannot correct unless you can connect.
• Not engaging the parents: The parents evangelize and then we catechize. It seems the parents don’t evangelize. Parent-child relationship is important.
• Failure to break-through a teen who went to drugs.

Table Four:

• We feel like we are failing personally.
• Confirmation very difficult because of the poor theology.
• Locked into education model – seems to be an end point at graduation…rather than training for discipleship.
• Helping parents prioritize church activities. Cultural prizes independence and utilitarianism so is what they are getting really more important than gymnastics.

Table Five:

• Daily failures with daily learning.
• Overwhelmed by failure.
• Letting things get to us.
• Failures on many different levels.
• Skateboarding teens – tell them to leave, not invite them to be involved in youth ministry – outreach ministry.
• Failure because we failed – not wanting to admit we did wrong and not trying to overcome it – pride.
• Lack of evaluation in what we do – do programs for the sake of doing it.
• “Dead Horses” – no change in what we do.
• How can we as a church admit that what we have been doing could possibly be wrong (i.e. confirmation)?
• We have low expectations for our confirmation students – no accountability.

Table Six:

• Feelings of pain, confusion.
• Reflections on life and what we can do better.
• Failure is hard but also can be freeing.
• How do we define failure?

Table Seven:

• Wednesday night format does not work.
• Tight schedules – October to April – competing against sports. We all lost the battle against, “I have to be here.” We have to MAKE them do it.
• Failure to get them to connect service projects, which are fun, to the rest of Catholic life.
• Grades 4-9 or 7-9: Textbooks – publishers assume interested kids – gap between the books and the actual kids. The texts fail.
• How to build relationship with large numbers of kids.
• Competition with other opportunities for kids. **BIG PROBLEM

Table Eight:

• Burnout – threat of burnout – failure leads to burnout. And where do you go when you’ve been called?
• Missing the key to keep the kids engaged. What are we missing → If the relationship isn’t present, we miss the opportunity.
• Ministers – structure of the system & expectations.
• Lay ministers don’t have same respect from church than priests and nuns.
• Other staff don’t know where they are and what they’re doing.
• Step up and be intentional about addressing the problems.

Table Nine:

• Personal -- Structural
• Statement about exp.
• Underlying question
• Own up & admit
• Assuming we know, speak language, see social changes.
• Not assessing.
• No support, burn-out.
• Paradigm shift – whole person relational whole family/books, curriculum Wednesday evenings.
• Going with and settling for incompetence.
• Over-focus on programming, graduation/not formation.
• Own experience of pain.
• Social issue of business.

Table Ten:

• Sense of wanting to be the leader; lack of delegation.
• Prioritizing – program vs. person/identifying where energy goes.
• Feeling overwhelmed.

What are the significant learnings from our failure?

Table One:

• A greater personal understanding of X’s mission for me.
• Successful story – student who always talked about death – minister talked with him. Important – personal relationships. Personal dialogue.
• Keep expectations small.
• Student writing/reflections are uplifting – a great way to see a different side of youth.
• There seems to be a mission link.
• There needs to be more help for our parents.

Table Two:

• Need to rethink how we do ministry to young people.
• Look at real needs instead of our perceived needs.
• Don’t identify the outcomes we intend, or have an evaluation process.

Table Three:

• You’ve got to know the teens.
• The connector: Need to speak their language.
• Listening and asking the right questions.
• Need to begin with the parents. The family needs to recognize their role.
• Prayer to connect.
• We need to provide an example of community if we are to build community.

Table Four:

• Necessary to invite young people into ministries, especially liturgical. Parent pieces need to be in place. It is hard to engage parents in the process, but it is a way out of dilemma.
• Need to ask some questions of adults as kids (e.g. do you have a commitment to Catholic identity – what claim does it have over your life?)
• Training for discipleship/parents have to be part of equation.
• We seldom talk about the “real presence” of Christ.
• Rotation model – prayer – core learning – activity for junior high. (This is a new model – may work.)

Table Five:

• How do we make our faith practical life living for our teens and our adults? Do we teach for the sake of knowing or for the sake of living?
• Ongoing formation for our adults – where is this in our parishes?
• Doing things because it has always been done that way.

Table Six:

• Christ is the center.
• We cannot do ministry in a vacuum.
• We need to humble ourselves.
• It is important to do what we can do taking risks despite or even because of failure.
• We think we know what we’re doing, but it’s not really about us but God working through all creation.

Table Seven:

• Paradigm shift is needed.
• What was learned:
• Youth involvement in planning
• Provide mini-course which allows choice for Grades 9-12
• Sundays 2x/month family-teen program
• Use ½ the religious ed time for youth-ministry
• Use a game to enhance the text
• Combining classes sometimes 1½ hours every other week instead of one hour weekly? 
• Use of older kids to teach younger ones – shrinking pool? – 6th Graders help with 1st Graders; Seniors with 7th Graders, etc.
• Small parish:
• Have adults present on religious education night.
• Work on parent involvement – get the parents involved by saying, “We have failed you.”

Table Eight:

• Being too diligent – trying too hard – not depending on God.
• Can we name the lament and learn from it?
• What is our fault –
• Not giving enough input
• Take it all on and not delegate
• Try to build leaders – both adults and youth
• Boundaries need to be set
• Take the “kick-me” off your back – “Don’t mess with me” on the front.
• Brown bag lunch with others doing youth ministry.

Table Nine:

• Can’t do everything; be passionate about everything (vocations, gifts, overwork).
• Particularities of native population and needs.
• I was a good Catholic mom, work in church, kids left – profession and paid work.
• Community of suffering folks (check – as ministers, women, priests).
• Youth do see and believe evangelicals, despite theologies, ecumenical, critical, aware of suffering – exposure info, access.
• Pastoral responsibility – integrity of music and beauty – teach them “why.”
• Maintain tensions – old & new, personal and communal.

Table Ten:

• Need for mentoring youth ministers.
• There is always a gift in failure/learnings.
• Ability to adapt/adjust/be flexible.
• We don’t have all the answers.
• There’s a lot of factors that contribute to failure/success.
• Know your soil/some seeds work in different soil.
• Recall the ultimate goal/focus on the goal.

Table Dialogue 2: Teaching/Forming Disciples

Pastoral Leadership Table Dialogue 2 Summary.pdf

When have you had an experience of teaching for discipleship?

Table One:

• Teen Talk – Created and run by teens with adults as “moderators”.
• Peer Ministry.
• Service projects & experiences to reinforce doctrine.
• Youth Leadership Camp.
• Sometimes letting the kids lead is the most powerful discipleship tool we can “teach”.

Table Two:

• T.E.C. Retreat – Totally to evangelize, convert + J.C. + to sustain; leadership – discipleship, pointing out Christ in our daily life.
• Mentor trainings – catechists.
• Shared Christian praxis – take word of God or Church tradition and art – how does it affect my life?
• Empower teens to have skills and support to do the ministry.
• Whenever we make connections between Jesus and what we do/live!
• Re-teaching faith practices – sharing meals, etc.

Table Three:

• Living discipleship and showing service to others.
• Intergenerational groups modeling the beatitudes through their various ministries – life experiences of today.
• Not just one (1) dimension!
• The whole community working together – St. Joe Bazaar just show up.
• Catholic school teaching during confirmation prep.
• The teacher learns as much or more than the students. 
• Involved the youth in the issues.
• Serious debates of issues.
• Experience the hardships of the poor.

Table Four:

• RCIA/Retreat.
• Try out on one experiencing intentional discipleship.
• One-on-one relationship, walking down the hall.
• With groups of leaders – mentor nurturing their faith life.
• Notice teen is hurting – always friends around. Help them identify and name that they are being disciples/Christ-like to each.
• Fr. David Knight: Curisolla/Tec Hisway.org.

Table Five:

• Team effort – both staff and volunteers – everyone working together.
• Big events (NCYC, World Youth Day) – invited people, they come back and share with other youth, are still active.
• Working on getting kids to do service for the sake of service, not just because they have to do so many hours.
• Mission trip “at home” instead of another part of country or world.
• Learning from life.

Table Six:

• Just giving the students the basics of discipleship – i.e. cultivating ministry – allowing them to define it.
• Empowering them to rise to the occasion in instances of diversity and hardship.
• Adults as catechists – terminology should reflect the mission volunteers or disciples.

Table Seven:

• 8th Grade Class – “Come follow me” + song → moment of “present silence” – They got it. Where are they now in 9th Grade? Same teacher, so can find out.
• Summer Service Trip – Kids form relationships – see Christ in those they serve. They “come out of their minds” in encountering others.
• Do they get what discipleship is? This is not the kids’ language – old, dated word, but kids get what it is. Considering cost.
• Sharing own story, struggle – Attention on youth ministry and kids then relax.
• 10% Catholic, most non-Christian in S. Korea – hospital chaplain – pray or visit vocation director.

Table Eight:

• YTM changed teaching – call to be intentional.
• When the pastor empowered me and I grew into my ministry.
• I felt successful when ministry was duplicated.
• Leadership training at Madeline Island – culminated with empowering commissary.
• That’s fine, how are you going to do it?
• TEC Retreats – Jr. High Summer Camp.

Table Nine:

• Teaching HS.
• Taking over after “confirmation”, assume you “know, now do.”
• Music, worship seasons.
• Parish fell apart; start home church with Franciscan nuns.
• Gatherings.
• Services Ops.
• Spiritual direction.
• Need for validating time in relationships.
• Easily risky.
• Falling apart.
• Going beyond.
• Gatherings.
• Service.

Table Ten:

• Leadership camp, mission trips.
• Confirmation classes.
• Getting out of books at times.
• Memorization; use of other media (videos).
• Challenge for the week.

What is valuable from these experiences?

Table One:

• Walk the walk.
• Faith in action – Kids learn how to do it, put forth in action, and how what they do and sometimes even enjoy, is already Catholic.
• When we serve, we meet Jesus.

Table Two:

• People are learning that experiences can teach and change them.
• If we are truly ecumenical, we are teaching discipleship.
• Experience of the Word through drama can change teens or us.
• Ritual and faith practices help understand discipleship creating habits and traditions and retreats that we can attach a signature to! Attach to rituals – practice; Hospitality – model.

Table Three:

• No Comments…skipped to next question.

Table Four:

• Discipleship teaching can sometimes be ad hoc.
• Recognize that there is “best time” for discipleship teaching when they are ready.
• Kids will model parents.
• What does a good disciple look like? We need to define.

Table Five:

• No comments – skipped to next question.

Table Six:

• Potential of the youth.
• Students can and need to be told that they have a responsibility.
• We need to think outside the box. We need to beware of limiting their creativity and ability in being a disciple.

Table Seven:

• Stories themselves – personal contacts – knowing we’re all real.
• Humbling realization that the opportunity to share on a “reality level” is always there.

Table Eight:

• Taking catechesis from passive to active.
• Refocus – answer the call – not just feeling based.
• Takes lesson – passive to active (contribution).
• Belonging to total picture – purpose in world.
• Place in community – value is that they are valued.
• Trust – relationship.

Table Nine:

• Community, small circle of spiritual friends that practice together.
• Listening.
• Integrated.
• Open.
• Involved.
• Engaged.
• Discovery.
• Knowing vs. doing.
• Fun – journey, inter-generational.
• Contemplative, receptive, open.
• Engaging daily life.
• Pausing and reflecting in small groups.
• Beautiful, music.

Table Ten:

• Brings faith to real life and showing its importance.
• Encourages ownership of values.

What changes either personally or programmatically do these experiences suggest?

Table One:

• Doctrine and curriculum as (or plus) practical, acted out faith – Hands and Feet.
• Active, experiential learning is effective. 
• Think and act “out of the box”.
• Bring real life to faith.

Table Two:

• Doing and being the Gospel instead of talking!
• Interpret what they are already doing as discipleship – catch them being disciples.

Table Three:

• Whole community involvement is needed.
• Personal commitment to what we are teaching.
• Be a part of the surrounding community – interact – personal contact – not just at crises points.
• Support of the community.

Table Four:

• Ask and answer – do our parents have a concept of God? Can’t be a disciple of Christ if you don’t know image of God.
• Thirty second commercial – got to get them to think about it – so they will “buy the product.”
• In-between time focused on prayer – trouble in families busyness, divorce.
• Send saints to model challenge for the week.
• Help kids not feel abandoned. Represent home for them.
• Remember no one cares what you know until they know that you care.

Table Five:

• Discipleship is action of Holy Spirit – can’t program it. It can happen because of or in spite of what we program.
• Have to leave room for Holy Spirit.
• Happens because of pastoral relationship in which one can help them in or through a difficult time.
• Discipleship needs to take place at home, not just “out there.”
• Where possible, involve kids in planning and executing liturgies.
• Grass roots up, not top down – at least consider it.

Table Six:

• We need to have courage in empowering them.
• We need to provide visioning.
• Allow the Holy Spirit to work.
• Being present in the silence.
• Have the wisdom to BE at times and to DO at other times.

Table Seven:

• A program that isn’t rigidly grade-based and is family oriented for Grades 1-7.
• Tell parents – “Do what’s best for your child” – when they ask if they have to do “homework” with their children.

Table Eight:

• I don’t know. Really hard to step back.
• Training of leaders.
• Not calling the kids to disciple, but the whole parish to disciple the kids.
• Get rid of the hoops/or make them valid and valuable.
• Processing of experiences. 
  1. What
  2. Be with
  3. Process
  (Who is going to do it if we don’t?)
• Adults – Part of process is the community modeling the behavior.
• Discipleship training is experiential, and part of the experiential process is helping young disciples process with a community that is actively modeling the process.

Table Nine:

• Experiential.
• Communal.
• Modeling actively.
• Collaborative.
• 1-1.
• Local, global.
• Apprentice, mentor.
• Daily life experience.

Table Ten:

• No comments.

Pastoral Leadership Eval Summary.pdf

To access the preliminary reading for the conference: 
Articles published by the Partnership for Adolescent Catechesis (NFCYM, NCCL, & NCEA)

National Study of Youth and Religion Research Dialogue

A goal of Saint John's School of Theology Youth in Theology and Ministry program (YTM) is to engage in ongoing research into Catholic youth ministry and vocations.  On August 27, 2005 more than 160 youth ministers, directors of religious education, pastors, vocation directors, and theologians gathered to discuss the book Soul Searching (2005) Oxford University Press, by Christian Smith.  The purpose of the gathering was to invite practitioners to reflect and analyze the data.  The discussion focused on the following questions:

Round 1:  Small Group Questions

• What data from Chapters 2 & 6 seems most important to you and your ministry?  Why?
• How do these data reflect your pastoral context?
• Table Reporting to the Large Group.
• Round 1 Written Comments (PDF File)

Round 2:  Small Group Questions

• What are the implications of these data for your current ministry with youth and young adults?
• What are the implications of these data for the Catholic Church and its efforts in youth and young adult ministry?
• Table Reporting to the Large Group.
• Round 2 Written Comments (PDF File)

Round 3:  Small Group Questions

• What recommendations do you propose for youth and young adult ministry to address these implications?
• Table Reporting to the Large Group.
• Round 3 Written Comments (PDF File)

Below are links to the evaluation of the day with comments on the day from the participants as well as a two-page handout of notes taken by Jeff Kaster, Director of the Youth in Theology and Ministry program on a summary of the findings of the National Study of Youth and Religion as presented by Dr. Christian Smith at the Lilly Endowment Forum on January 28, 2005.

• Evaluation of the Day (PDF File)
• Summary of the Findings of the National Study of Youth and Religion (PDF File)

The table notes and parts of the evaluation summary are the analysis of the National Study of Youth and Religion from Catholic pastoral practitioners.  It is our hope that this information will provide an interesting and important perspective for the national debate raised by the National Study of Youth and Religion.

To discuss this data further, please do not hesitate to call Jeff Kaster at 320-363-2620 or e-mail him at jkaster@csbsju.edu.

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Youth in Theology and Ministry Program
Saint John's School of Theology·Seminary
Box 7288, Collegeville, Minnesota 56321